Episode 4: Memories of Eden, part 1
With ancient geography, forgotten biology, and an uninvited guest with a past, this episode is the story of Eden.
Quotes from the Bible were were taken from the English Standard Version (see ESV copyright here) or the New King James Version. For the other sources, including commentaries, websites, or articles, you can find links and references in the show notes below in the order they appeared. As always, all the sources I used, including commentaries, websites, or articles are referenced in the show notes below in the order they appeared …and there are a lot of them. Feel free to read through them while you listen or come back and check them out later. If you have questions, you can contact me with the link at the bottom of the page.
Show notes:
For the background of the story of Atlantis, see here. For the full text of Timaeus and Critias see here and here respectively. For more about Solon, the Athenian statesman, see here. For more about Plato, see here. For connecting the “Pillars of Hercules” with the modern Strait of Gibraltar, see here.
Plato says the island was 3000 stadia long by 2000 stadia wide. If you assume the island was elliptical, that gives it an area of 62,000 - 92,000 square miles (depending on the length of the stadia), or somewhere around the size of the island of Great Britain. For the size of Atlantis according to Plato, see here. For the size of Great Britain, see here. For the conversion between stadia and feet, see this definition.
For the location of the capitol of Atlantis relative to the shore, Critias states that the channel running from the shore to the capitol city was 50 stadia. According to this definition, a Greek stadia varied between 607 and 738 feet making the canal 5.75 to 7 miles long.
Critias states that the outer wall was covered in brass, and the middle wall in tin, but it says the inner wall “flashed with the red light of orichalcum.” According to the story, orichalcum was dug out of the earth and was more precious than anything except gold. If it existed, no one knows what orichalcum was. Since the other walls were covered in protective metal, the inner wall probably was too, but that’s speculation. For the references to orichalcum in Critias, see here.
For more on the Hyperboreans, see here. For more on Herodotus, see here.
For the mythological background of Lyonesse, the lost city, see here.
Originally the story of El Dorado, or “the gilded one” was was about a ruler in South America who covered himself in gold dust before rinsing in a lake while his subjects threw in jewels and golden objects. Over time the story turned into a tale about a country of gold. The story of El Dorado is recent enough that we still have some details of how it developed over time, and it gives us some insight into how stories change when they are told and embellished. For more on El Dorado, see here.
For more on Francisco de Orellana, see here. His tales of the female warriors he met on the expedition ultimately led to the region being named after the warrior women from Greek mythology, the Amazons, as mentioned here.
For more on recent discoveries of the civilization that used to live in the Amazon basin, see here as well as comments on pg. 173, here about extensive roadways and canals.
Modern scholars think Plato made up everything about Atlantis as a way of illustrating his philosophy. It doesn’t help that Plato is the only source for any references to Atlantis. For the origin of the Atlantis story, see here and here. For more on Plato and Atlantis, see here.
Depending on who you ask, the word “Eden” might be from a Mesopotamian word for “plain,” as in the “Great Plains,” or from a couple of Hebrew words that mean “bliss” or “delight.” For more on the etymology, see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:8, note. Zondervan.
For details on the Euphrates, see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:14, note. Zondervan. and Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (pp. 345–346). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For lack of further mentions of “Pishon” elsewhere in the Bible, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1978). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 1, p. 224). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For “Pishon” meaning “gusher” see see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:11, note. Zondervan.
For references to “Havilah,” see Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (p. 464). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
What “onyx” was in the Bible isn’t really clear, but it was used as a gem in the Jewish High Priest’s garments. For more, see Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (p. 815). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
It’s unclear if the bdellium mentioned in Havilah is the same as the bdellium mentioned by the Roman Naturalist Pliny the Elder. In Pliny’s day, bdellium came from India, Arabia, and Persia, but destruction and rearrangement during the Flood in Genesis 8 means that today’s geography probably bears little resemblance to the “Havilah” mentioned in this part of Genesis. Later in the Bible, Manna is compared to bdellium (Numbers 11:7). For more information, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1978). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 1, p. 224). Review and Herald Publishing Association, Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers., as well as here and here.
For “Gihon” meaning “spurter,” see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:13, note. Zondervan.
For more on the Gihon spring outside Jerusalem (not the same as the river from the Garden of Eden) see Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (p. 420). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For the location of “Cush” see Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (p. 420). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
If you look at the quote about the Pishon and Gihon in Genesis 2:10-14, they may have been “lost” rivers even when Genesis was written. Both the Pishon and Gihon “flowed” (past tense), while the Tigris “flows.”
For possible locations of the Pishon and Gihon, see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:11, note and Genesis 2:13, note. Zondervan.
For details about Josephus, see here.
For Josephus thinking the Pishon was the Ganges, see here.
For alternative suggestions about the locations of the Pishon and Gihon, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1978). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 1, p. 224). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For a map of the Tigris and Euphrates river system, see here.
For the river formed by the last 120 miles of the Tigris and Euphrates, where they merge before reaching the Persian Gulf, see here.
For a map of the Tigris and Euphrates, see here.
The verse in Genesis states that the Tigris flowed east of Assyria. This is referring to the Tigris as it exists now, and the Assyrian empire as it existed around three-thousand years ago. This river bed is probably not the same as the one flowing from Eden but for one reason or another, it had the same name after the Flood. For a map of the Assyrian empire, see here.
Actually, if you dig into the names a of the rivers a little bit more, the four rivers were originally called the Pishon, Gihon, Hiddegel, and Perat. If we didn’t have a paper trail through history showing that “Hiddegel” was later called “Idiglat” and the “Idiglat” was later named the “Tigris,” or, that the “Perat,” or “great river,” was called the “Uruttu” for a while before being renamed the “Euphrates,” then we would have lost track of all the rivers Genesis describes and wouldn’t have the names of any of them on our maps today. For the various names the Tigris and Euphrates have used through history, see Bauer, Susan Wise. The History of the Ancient World: From the Earliest Accounts to the Fall of Rome (Kindle Locations 14608-14611). W. W. Norton & Company. Kindle Edition.
Genesis 2:8 says that God planted Eden “in the east,” but what this means is unclear. Since Moses lived around the Sinai peninsula, this would probably be a reference to a location to the east of where he was writing, or around what we think of as Mesopotamia. We don’t know what led Moses to say that’s where the Garden of Eden used to be. With the rearranging of the Earth during the Flood, the location was either based upon tradition or given to Moses by divine revelation. Since the post-Flood civilization began in Mesopotamia, people may have thought that Noah’s ark grounded on a mountain near where it started, and that it’s starting place was near where the Garden of Eden used to be, but this is speculation.
For the traditional location of the Garden of Eden near where the Tigris and Euphrates meet, see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 2:8, note. Zondervan.
Why river names were chosen 4500 years ago is speculation, but I wonder if marketing had something to do with it. If you had the story of a place that used to exist that was famous for its gold, gems, and perfume, you might name your new colony that just to gain the reputation. It’s a little like calling the place “Greenland” rather than “Snow-and-glacier-land.” The same thing could be said of the freshwater spring outside Jerusalem. Perhaps they were just calling it a “spurter,” but maybe they also wanted people to think their water was just as good as the water that used to flow from the Garden of Eden.
For the timeline of when the giant dragonfly (technically griffinfly) fossil was discovered, see here, for the location, see here, and for the wingspan, see here. For the wingspan of the largest modern dragonfly, see here.
For details on the giant beavers, see here.
For the heights of elephants in the past, see reference to 480 cm on pg. 562 of the paper found here. For the height of a large elephant today, see the measurement of Jumbo at the end of pg. 545. For the range of heights, see here.
For more on giant sloth tunnels, see here and here. For the average size of a modern sloth, see here.
More accurately, this should have been said that the sea turtles were about 12 feet long from here, though this says 11 feet. Even so, the largest example of Archelon is in Vienna, and it measures about 15 feet from tip to tail according to this article.
For the recent discovery of large penguin leg bones, see this article.
For more on the discovery of the bird with the 20+ foot wingspan, see here and here. For some studies on how it flew, see here. For the wingspan of a modern albatross, see here.
For a recent dinosaur that, as a of 2016, contends for the largest ever found, see articles here and here.
In this whole discussion of the fossils we find of animals before the Flood, it’s important to remember that the animals we reconstruct are based on incomplete information. We could have fossils of the whole skeleton of one animal, while for another we’re extrapolating from only a few small parts. It’s hard to know. Given this uncertainty, the conclusions we draw about their size, let alone their lifestyle and habits, should be taken with a grain of salt.
For the original vegetarian diet of both people and animals, see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Genesis 1:29-30, note. Zondervan.
For examples of large tree species, see here.
For facts on the General Sherman and other sequoias, see here, here, and here.
For petrified wood in Ecuador, see here.
For petrified wood in Greece, see here.
For a list of US sites with petrified wood, see here.
For a petrified forest in Germany, see here.
For a petrified forest in New South Wales, Australia, see here.
For evidence of tall trees in Utah, see here.
For the size of trees in Florissant, Colorado, see here.
For petrified trees in Argentina, see here.
For heights of trees that used to exist in Thailand, see here.
The suggestion that these forests were extensive in the world Eden was a part of is speculation. It’s hard to make a clear case for the extent of ancient forests or the sizes of trees that were in them. We have some evidence of large trees in different places around the world, but the data is limited and there is no clear evidence that the trees were bigger than ones we have today, only that the world Eden was a part of may have had an environment that supported growing big trees in more places based on how the fossils are spread out around the world.
For the dimensions of the Statue of Liberty, see here.
The fact that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever is clear from Genesis 3:22. Some commentators see this as a measure of faith, that Adam and Eve had to look to something external, to some gift of God, for life. Immortality wasn’t an intrinsic part of their nature. For more, see Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.
There isn’t a lot of information on the Tree of Life in the Bible. There are some references here in Genesis (Genesis 2:9, some in Proverbs (Proverbs 11:30, Proverbs 13:12) where it is used metaphorically, and some in Revelation (Revelation 22:1-2) that describes the Tree of Life on a new Earth. I assumed the "new" Tree of Life in Revelation is the same, or at least very similar, to the original Tree of Life discussed in Genesis.
For more on the Garden of the Hesperides, see this article about Pausanias and here for what Pausanias wrote.
At first glance, it might not seem like the Babylonian cylinder of a Palm tree is a picture of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but look at the whole picture here before you decide.
For more on the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” depicted as a Mulberry tree in Chinese history, see Nelson, E.R., Broadberry, R.E. (1997) God’s Promise to the Chinese. (pg. 36).
For the timelines of Moses, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, see “Moses,” “Isaiah,” and “Ezekiel” in Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.
One opinion about the passage in Isaiah suggests that Isaiah (and perhaps Ezekiel as well) is just using figurative language to refer to human kings (see Barker, K. L. (2002) NIV Study Bible. Isaiah 14:12-15, note and Ezekiel 28:12-19, notes. Zondervan.). On the other hand, Christians were already interpreting the Isaiah passage as referring to something more significant than an analogy before 300 AD. For more, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, p. 675). Review and Herald Publishing Association. as well as here. For a fuller discussion of the question, see From Lucifer to Satan.
The gems Ezekiel lists as covering the “guardian cherub” are 9 of the 12 jewels used for the Jewish high priest (Exodus 28:17-20 and Exodus 39:8-14), emphasizing the closeness that once existed between Lucifer and God in heaven. For more, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, p. 676). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
I gave a paraphrase of the passage from Ezekiel. If you want the text word-for-word, see Ezekiel 28:12-17.
In the paraphrase of Ezekiel 28:13, I left out the phrase, “You were in Eden, the Garden of God.” This would seem to make a pretty good argument for connecting this story of the origin of evil to the Garden of Eden, but at least one commentary suggests the phrase should be symbolic of heaven due to context and the fact that the angel was still perfect. I can see it both ways. Ezekiel might be referring to heaven, since the angel was dressed in gems, or he could be making a side comment about where the angel would soon be (i.e. the angel would later be in Eden) to help the audience know who was being described. I left the comment out to avoid confusing things too much. For specifics, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, pp. 675–676). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For a sense of how close this angel once was to God, the phrase “guardian cherub” brings to mind the cherubs that were set over the Ark of the Covenant, God’s throne on Earth, in the Jewish Temple. Ezekiel is saying that this being was one of those cherubs, right next to the throne of God, in heaven. See Nichol, The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, p. 675). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
To get a better idea of how bright Lucifer was, note that the same name, “light bearer” is used to describe Christ in 2 Peter 1:19. John also refers to Christ this way in Revelation 22:16. This gives a sense of how high Lucifer was in heaven and how close he was to God. For more, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, pp. 170–171). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
For more on the “mountain” analogy from Isaiah and the Babylonian myth about a mountain in the north, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, p. 171). For Ezekiel, see The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol 4, p. 675). Review and Herald Publishing Association. You can also see this idea in Psalms 48:2.
The “trade” referenced in Ezekiel 28:16 refers to trading in goods or in words (slandering). If the passage is taken as referring to the king of Tyre, trading in “goods” fits. If it is taken as referring to the guardian cherub in heaven, the definition of “slander” seems to fit better. For more, see Andrews Study Bible (2010) Ezekiel 28:16, note.
As evidence that Lucifer’s ultimate rebellion was more than just himself, you can see references in see 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 to other angels. Revelation 12:4 makes reference to a dragon sweeping a third of the stars from heaven, leading some to suspect that a full third of the angels in heaven followed Lucifer and were expelled with him, while others think it refers symbolically to the Romans taking away Jewish kingship, one of the three branches of their government. For more, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1980). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 7, pp. 809–810). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
While it is literally true that God made the devil, it’s more accurate to say that God made a perfect angel, and by choice, that angel changed into the devil on his own. For more, see Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1977). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 4, p. 675). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
Update: Some of the audio and a show note related to fossils of beavers and sea turtles was given a minor update on 11/1/2019 to fix a couple of details.
Update: I removed an audio clip on 11/6/2019 related to the size of trees found in Colorado after catching an error that mistook circumference for diameter and added a footnote making it clear that any comments about the extent of big tree forests that used to exist on the Earth of the past is speculation.